‘Modern Love Podcast:’ That Time I Bought My Husband’s Girlfriend a Burial Plot

This transcript was created utilizing speech recognition software program. Whereas it has been reviewed by human transcribers, it could include errors. Please evaluate the episode audio earlier than quoting from this transcript and e-mail transcripts@nytimes.com with any questions.

Hey, everybody, it’s Anna. Earlier than we get began at present, I simply need to ask a fast favor. We’re engaged on our Valentine’s Day episode. And we would like you to be part of it. Are you able to inform us concerning the second you knew you have been falling in love? The place have been you? What was taking place? What did it really feel like? It may be a couple of relationship you’re at the moment in, or a relationship from the previous. We simply need to know concerning the second you possibly can inform, hey, I’m falling in love with this individual.

Document your reply as a voice memo and e-mail it to ModernLovePodcast@nytimes.com, and we might find yourself that includes it on the present. Another time, inform us concerning the second you knew you have been falling in love, and ship it as a voice memo to ModernLovePodcast@nytimes.com. We’re so excited to listen to from you. If you wish to be included within the episode, your deadline is February 5. OK, let’s begin the present.

Robin Eileen Bernstein didn’t like calling herself a widow.

So when it got here time to put in writing the inscription for her husband’s gravestone, Robin was stumped.

What occurs when the permanence of demise clashes with the messiness of life? From “The New York Occasions,” I’m Anna Martin. That is “Fashionable Love.” Every week, we deliver you tales impressed by the “Fashionable Love” column. Right this moment’s episode is predicated on an essay known as, “Right here Lie the Bickersons, Facet by Facet for all Eternity,” by Robin Eileen Bernstein. Stick to us.

[SOFT MUSIC]

Robin Eileen Bernstein, welcome to “Fashionable Love.”

Anna, I’m so blissful to be right here. Thanks.

I’m going to leap proper in with you. Why did you and your husband Mark, resolve to get divorced?

We had a protracted marriage, however there was quite a lot of bickering. Each couple argues, proper? However for us, I feel the stability was like, the arguing to the great occasions was —

The ratio was off.

The ratio was off. We agreed on the large stuff. We wished youngsters. We had two youngsters inside 4 years. We loved doing the identical issues. We had comparable worldviews. However Mark was — he variety had this type of “my approach or the freeway” lifestyle. And he felt like he knew the easiest way to do issues, go to this grocery store or drive on this — take that route. For instance, the grocery retailer —

So I had simply moved out to Lengthy Island, which was the place he lived. I had been dwelling in Manhattan. And I didn’t actually — I used to be having hassle adjusting to dwelling on the market. It wasn’t for me. So he was telling me the place the grocery shops have been. That’s the shop. He pointed to 1 grocery retailer. That’s the shop it’s best to go to.

And I didn’t notably like going to that grocery retailer. I preferred the opposite one, a mile the opposite path. However he was so insistent. Effectively, they’ve the most effective costs or they’ve the most effective this. And it simply — that’s the extent of small stuff we’re speaking about. Or we’d be driving, and he was a backseat driver. Oh, go that automobile. Oh, it’s best to go that approach, it’s somewhat faster. It’s like, you drive then.

He wasn’t a simple individual. He could possibly be a really tough individual. He had coronary heart. And it was coming from place. He thought he was spreading his knowledge.

Serving to, yeah.

He thought he was serving to, precisely. Thanks. And if you’re dwelling with somebody like that day in and time out, it’s simply exhausting as a result of I had my very own opinions. And it grew to become obvious early on within the marriage. I imply, we began marriage counseling proper after our honeymoon. And we continued with counseling for chunk of our marriage. And I used to be studying each — I’d go to Barnes and Noble and browse each “find out how to save your marriage” guide, or then, when the web got here alongside, Googling.

What sorts of questions have been you Googling?

How one can talk higher, quite a bit about find out how to get alongside, simply the day-to-day stuff, and never argue about each little factor. And I feel he would attempt to change. And we each wished the wedding to work. I considered it like, you if you’re within the ocean and a wave comes and knocks you down? And also you stand up. After which one other wave comes and knocks you down. And then you definately stand up. After which after 100 occasions getting knocked down, it’s like, that is exhausting and I feel —

I need to get out of the ocean.

Yeah.

Who was Robin earlier than she met Mark? What was her life like?

So I used to be dwelling in Manhattan, within the West Village. I had this nice condo. And I used to be a drummer in a band.

Hey, maintain on. You have been a drummer in a band?

I used to be a drummer in a band. So I used to be dwelling this sort of enjoyable metropolis life. It was simply enjoyable. After which I meet Mark, and now my life is — that life is —

Yeah.

I did desire a companion. I wished to get married very a lot. And I wished youngsters. However I don’t assume I absolutely realized how a lot I used to be giving up.

Inform me, what drew you to him initially?

He was this actually spontaneous man. He had two speeds. He was operating, doing, or he was on the sofa with the distant. We have been on the seaside someday. And abruptly he begins placing on his garments, his shorts and his — I’m like, the place are we going? He goes, we’re going to the flicks. He simply had all this vitality. And I simply obtained swept into that. However he made me really feel very beloved. And he was extraordinarily —

How? Did he say it?

Oh my god, he had a phrase — now it escapes me — however one thing he would say. Oh, I bear in mind. He would say, I’m lovesick. That’s what he would say, I’m lovesick. I felt wished.

That’s so highly effective.

I felt actually wished. And I had had quite a lot of years of courting, and relationships not figuring out. And it’s like, right here is that this man. And it simply appeared to be working. And he appeared loopy about me. And he was there. And it was shifting in the suitable path. And I in all probability observed, OK, perhaps it’s not excellent —

However what’s?

— however what’s. It’s like, it’s fairly good. You recognize the largest drawback, I feel, with the 2 of us? Was we have been attracted to one another. We had the bodily attraction. We had comparable pursuits. We each wished a household. So we did have quite a lot of the large issues in frequent. However on the core, we weren’t actually buddies. We beloved one another, however we didn’t essentially at all times like one another. We have been like simply two good individuals who weren’t good collectively. I used to be a Mac and he was a PC.

And we have been simply — two completely different working programs.

Had been you the Mac? Or have been you the PC?

I used to be the Mac —

OK. Thank goodness. I used to be like —

He was —

You seem like a Mac to me.

In order that’s one of many causes that the wedding failed, was this simply fixed stress of making an attempt to grasp one another, making an attempt to get one another, and never with the ability to.

Yeah, I suppose I ponder, was there a second the place you have been like, that is an excessive amount of, I’m accomplished? Or was it like a rolling boil, nearly like, since you bought again from the honeymoon?

I feel for a very long time, I assumed we may repair this. It was only a matter of discovering the suitable counselor or the suitable —

Or the suitable guide, yeah.

— the suitable guide, no matter. By the previous couple of years, it wasn’t if we’re going to separate up, it was extra like when. I feel I did say to him, perhaps we must always break up up, this isn’t going to work. And he’d say, no, we’re going to work it out. He wished it to work. I used to be the extra life like one, though sarcastically, he was the one who really pulled the plug earlier than I did.

Actually? He stated, let’s —

He stated — it was an everyday day. I used to be strolling out the door. I used to be going someplace. And I handed by him. He was sitting on the sofa, watching TV. And I stated, bye, I’m headed out or no matter. And he stated, oh, OK. And by the way in which, you’re going to be getting a letter from my legal professional.

Robin.

It was simply so matter of reality, like, oh, by the way in which, go decide up a quart of milk. Oh, by the way in which, you’re going to get a letter from my legal professional. And I bear in mind stopping and pondering, OK, oh, so that is the way it ends.

It’s hanging me that you simply two didn’t bicker about getting a divorce. It seems like that was one thing that you simply each —

It was a reduction. It was a reduction, I feel, to lastly simply —

to cease making an attempt so laborious.

The factor about — properly, not that I’ve been divorced, however so I’m informed — is that it’s robust, it may be ugly, it will possibly drag on, particularly when youngsters are within the combine. How did it work with you two?

It was sluggish. As soon as we agreed to separate up, I simply figured, OK, you come to an settlement about funds and who will get what, after which that’s it. Nevertheless it simply stored dragging on and on. However on the flip facet, as a result of there was a way of reduction, we have been on this Twilight Zone, the place OK, this isn’t so unhealthy. It grew to become comfy to only dwell aside and never undergo the precise nuts and bolts of the particular divorce.

So that you’re dwelling aside after 17 years. What does that do to your dynamic?

It took the strain off of us. We have been nonetheless legally married. We didn’t have a proper separation settlement. It was identical to, OK, you do your factor, I’ll do my factor. It was like, oh, you need to come over and see the children? No matter. We have been now capable of talk with out this fixed bickering.

Did you two begin to date different folks?

Yeah. Effectively, he met somebody rapidly.

How did that really feel?

It was positive. You recognize what? As a result of it was like, she took him off my palms.

A horrible factor to say, however he loves this new individual. And he stated, you’ll like her, too. And I used to be blissful that he discovered another person and that he was happier and calmer as a result of it made my life simpler.

Inform me about if you first met her. And did you want her as a lot as Mark stated you’ll?

I did. She was very candy. She had a pleasant smile. She appeared very heat and pleasant, not standoffish and aloof or something like that. I preferred her.

As you began to spend extra time with the girlfriend and with Mark, did you see that type of friction between the 2 of them, that type of bickering that you simply two had? Or was it smoother?

It was smoother. However I’ll let you know this. There was one level when she stated to me, he could possibly be type of tough.

And also you have been like, sister —

I used to be like, simply — I wished to say, it is a no-return coverage.

No refunds, no returns.

You’re like, I’m sorry, you threw away the receipt.

Proper, proper, proper. I imply, she was conscious of it, too.

Yeah.

However I feel that they have been hoping to — as soon as Mark and I finalized our divorce, I feel the belief was that they’d get engaged and married.

Are all of you spending time collectively as a household? What about holidays?

So we continued to spend holidays collectively for probably the most half. His brother and his brother’s spouse, so my brother-in-law and sister-in-law, they lived close by. And so they tended to have holidays at their home. And I continued to be invited. I imply, I used to be nonetheless a part of the household, which was fantastic for me. It was, as a result of that’s not at all times the case. It’s like, you break up up, goodbye, you’re useless to me. We by no means need to see you once more. I imply, his household beloved me. They have been like, we would like her.

We like her grocery retailer — It’s

Proper. It’s like, who will get who? It’s like, we don’t need him. We would like her. So anyway, I used to be at some vacation dinner at their home, with lots of people. Mark and his girlfriend and me and the children and my brother-in-law and sister-in-law and their youngsters, after which prolonged household, different cousins and buddies —

The entire gang’s right here.

— the entire gang. And we’re all having espresso and dessert. And folks have been on the brink of go house. And Mark obtained up, and he stood behind his girlfriend, and he put his palms on her shoulders, and stated, OK, honey, it’s time to go. After which I used to be sitting subsequent to her. So then he moved over, and did the identical factor. He places his palms on my shoulder and stated, OK, honey, it’s time to go.

And all people simply cracked up.

I really like that.

It was like, he took a second that might have been tense — I imply, it’s odd to have the girlfriend and the spouse there.

Nonetheless spouse, yeah, the divorce remains to be —

I used to be nonetheless the spouse. I imply, it’s uncommon. And he simply subtle it. He could possibly be very humorous if he wished to be. And it was simply such an ideal second. It was so humorous and so actual.

Did it make you are feeling much more so like, that is proper? That is the choice that needed to be made?

It did. It was like, that is going to work. He’s going to ultimately marry her. And I’ll be capable to transfer again to town, the place I need to be, and all might be good.

[SOFT MUSIC]

Simply as Robin was getting comfy with the state of affairs, every little thing abruptly modified. That’s after we come again. Stick with us.

[SOFT MUSIC]

Inform me concerning the final time you noticed Mark.

Certain. It was a fantastic Sunday afternoon. And I used to be within the yard. And he known as and stated, can I come over and cling with the children? He had been away that weekend, with a buddy of his. And I stated, certain. I joked. I stated, you’ll be able to are available and vacuum out the pool. So he came to visit. And we had somewhat basketball factor arrange within the driveway. I bear in mind he was taking pictures hoops with the children.

We sat across the pool. We talked. I don’t bear in mind the small print, however I bear in mind it being a stunning afternoon, the place we weren’t arguing, and pondering that, had it been like this extra typically throughout our marriage, that perhaps we might have stayed collectively.

After which round 4 o’clock, I used to be sitting in a chair exterior. And I used to be studying. And I heard him say, I’m leaving.

Did you hug goodbye?

No, we didn’t. We didn’t hug goodbye. I simply bear in mind listening to him say, I’m leaving. And people have been the final phrases I ever heard him say, I’m leaving — as a result of that was the evening he had a coronary heart assault.

[SOFT MUSIC]

Inform me about the way you discovered that out.

It was within the night after dinner. And I used to be watching TV in my room. And his girlfriend known as.

And that’s when she informed me he had a coronary heart assault. And he or she was a nurse. She did CPR on him, she stated. And he or she known as 911. And the ambulance got here, however it took them, I feel, near 40 minutes to get a traditional sinus rhythm again. In order that’s too lengthy. And so he was now within the ER. And he or she stated, come rapidly.

And the way previous was he at the moment?

57. So he was younger.

Yeah.

I’ve obtained the children. The three of us get within the automobile. And we drive to the hospital. And it was a Sunday evening. It was very quiet there. And there was this ER attendant. I suppose he was like a safety guard. So I stroll in, and I stated who we have been there to see. And he stated, oh, properly — he ushers us into this ready room. And he stated, properly, you guys are going to have to attend in right here as a result of the physician is speaking to the household.

And also you have been like —

As a result of his girlfriend was there. And likewise, it seems my brother-in-law had simply gotten there, too. So I stated, properly, we’re the household. And he appears at me and he goes, who’re you?

And I stated, I’m his spouse and these are his youngsters. The look on his face was like, this could’t be good. I imply, I want I had taken an image of his face as a result of it was identical to, what? Who’s that woman in there?

Did you clarify? OK, you have been identical to, let’s get in there.

Yeah. So yeah, then I’m ushered into the room with the physician. And one of many ICU nurses stated to me at one level, after we came upon there was a spouse and a girlfriend, we have been all, ready for — and so they have been so happy to see how properly all people obtained alongside.

Wow.

We’re in a horrible state of affairs to start with. And there was no purpose to make it worse. And I additionally felt for his girlfriend. I imply, I assumed, this needs to be so awkward for her. I simply wished her to not really feel like I’m elbowing her out, like hey, get out of the way in which, I’m the spouse now. You’re not wanted right here.

And emotionally, she is, I’m certain, distraught as properly, proper?

Oh, she’s very — I imply, he had a coronary heart assault in entrance of her. She was the one dealing. I imply, I’m sitting house, watching HBO. And I’m the spouse. And he or she’s the girlfriend, who doesn’t have a authorized bond to him. And but, she’s the one who’s actually struggling. It simply — partly, I felt like, what am I doing right here? As a result of bear in mind, we have been separated for 2 years at that time. We had not been collectively for 2 years. He’s together with her. I’m courting. I check with him as my ex.

So now abruptly, I’m the spouse? That’s what sort of blew my thoughts. It’s like, we’re main separate lives, we’ve divorce attorneys, and now abruptly, everybody’s treating me like, properly, you’re the spouse, you’re in cost. You’re the health-care proxy. You’re the mom of the youngsters. And everybody’s type of taking a look at me.

As soon as it was clear that Mark was not going to get better, what did you resolve to do?

We determined to take him off life help as a result of they stated there’s no hope. There’s little or no mind perform. So I needed to get a burial plot. We didn’t have burial plots. We’d by no means spoke about it. We had different points we have been coping with. And my sister-in-law stated to me, properly, why don’t you purchase two plots, one for Mark and one for his girlfriend? And I simply I checked out her, and I assumed — I checked out her like she was loopy as a result of I assumed, she’ll meet any individual else.

I didn’t say this, however I’m pondering, why would she — it’s not like she’s Ms. Havisham from “Nice Expectations,” she’s going to be in her wedding ceremony gown with cobwebs for the following 50 years. I imply, she’ll have a life. And I considered it. And I assumed, properly, if it helps her to really feel included, OK, positive. And I went over, and I stated, I’m going to get two burial plots. And if you’d like one, you desire a plot? Right here’s a free burial plot. I don’t bear in mind precisely how I stated it to her, however she instantly burst in — stated thanks. She burst into these blissful tears or emotional tears. I feel she appreciated this gesture of inclusion.

Inform me about if you went to the cemetery to purchase these plots. And what occurred?

It was Friday morning. And he was being taken off life help that afternoon. So I mainly had only a few hours to get this burial plot. And I met my brother-in-law on the cemetery —

His brother, Mark’s brother.

Mark’s brother, sure. And we go right into a gross sales workplace, I suppose. It’s like an everyday workplace with an enormous desk. And the gross sales man for the cemetery is sitting on the opposite facet. And I defined. I informed him the state of affairs. He’s on life help. He’s not anticipated to outlive. So I need to purchase two plots. So the gross sales man expresses his condolences. And he stated, I assume you’ll desire a double stone.

So I stated, properly, the opposite plot isn’t for me, it’s for his girlfriend.

He’s like — his eyebrows go up into his to the highest of his head. And he’s like, OK. He appears to my brother-in-law as a result of he’s pondering, I’m coping with a loopy spouse.

So my brother-in-law stated, properly, they have been getting divorced. At that time, the gross sales man is type of — you’ll be able to see him shuffling papers. And he’s pondering — I think about the thought bubble on his head is like, OK, if this spouse desires to purchase a burial plot for the man she’s divorcing and his girlfriend, not my drawback.

It was actually so —

However you probably did it.

I did it. I purchased the 2 plots.

However then you need to determine, clearly, what to put in writing for Mark. How did you work that out?

That was not straightforward. I wished to mirror the connection that we had, not the connection that everybody would assume as a result of usually, it could say beloved husband. And that will come on the high, after which father, brother, no matter. So this was — can I take —

Pulling out a paper. Yeah, Yeah, yeah.

On the high, it says, loving father, as a result of that was his most vital function, caring husband, devoted son as a result of his dad was nonetheless alive, expensive brother and uncle, after which for his girlfriend on the backside, beloved companion. It’s attention-grabbing as a result of somebody informed me years later, that “companion” means your pet.

I used to be going to say, it sounds type of like a canine.

Yeah, and I used to be like, oh, jeez. And it’s type of too late to alter.

You’re like, it’s actually written in stone.

Proper. It’s actually written in stone. Effectively, I simply thought, beloved boyfriend, particularly when you might have caring husband, I don’t know.

I feel that covers the bases.

Yeah, it was like, what? Companion and husband? OK. I may have written soon-to-be ex-husband. Possibly that will have been higher.

Because the years handed, did the thought of Mark’s girlfriend being buried subsequent to Mark nonetheless appeared like the suitable factor for everybody?

We stayed in contact the primary 12 months or two. We undoubtedly stayed in contact, particularly on birthdays or on the anniversary of the demise. We invited her to dinners, issues like that. However then as time went on, you simply begin to transfer on together with your life. And by the point — I needed to repay the cemetery in 36 month-to-month installments. So it was three years earlier than I lastly obtained the deed to the plots. So by the point I obtained the deed within the mail, I used to be dwelling again in Manhattan.

Had been you continue to in contact with the girlfriend by that time?

Not that a lot at that time, no. It was like, am I imagined to e-mail her and say, hey, I obtained the deed? It’s three years later. Are you continue to ? The entire thing simply was weird. However I came upon by means of the grapevine that she had gotten married. And I texted her saying, congratulations, I heard you bought married. That’s when she texted again, thanks. And the way are the children? And I miss you guys. It was actually heat.

That was 5 years in the past. And I suppose that was the purpose once I realized, properly, clearly she doesn’t need this burial plot, proper. It’s like, Hello, I do know you’re remarried, however are you continue to interested by being buried subsequent to him?

It’s not the time to deliver it up now.

Yeah.

However that doesn’t reply the query of, properly, so what do you do? I imply, you might have it. You personal it.

I personal it.

You’ve paid it off.

Effectively, proper. Right here’s what I wrestle with. I wrestle with, do you get buried subsequent to the man you have been divorcing? That’s primary. After which the opposite query is, I by no means wished to dwell on the market and by no means actually wished to depart town and by no means wished to maneuver to the suburbs. So it’s like, properly, why would I need to spend eternity there, buried subsequent to the man who all we did was bicker? It was like, properly —

So it sounds such as you very a lot nonetheless — the quick model of it’s, you continue to don’t know what you’re going to do with this plot.

I nonetheless may promote it. However the truth that I’ve not accomplished a factor type of signifies that I decided, simply by not making a call.

What does that let you know? Yeah, what does that let you know?

It tells me that — it doesn’t make any sense on quite a lot of ranges, however on quite a lot of ranges, it does make sense for me to be there as a result of the place else would I be? I’ll be useless. What am I making an attempt to show?

You stated in life, Mark actually wished issues his approach. And I feel it’ll be humorous in a darkish approach, however in a humorous approach, if he will get his approach and you find yourself on Lengthy Island in any case.

That’s so perceptive. He’s nonetheless getting his approach. Even in demise, he’s nonetheless getting his —

[LAUGHS]

I didn’t need to transfer on the market. Once we obtained engaged, I used to say to him, I’m shifting again to town. You’re both coming with me otherwise you’re not. However now he’s dragging —

He’s dragging you again.

He’s dragging me again, and this time, ceaselessly.

If you find yourself buried subsequent to Mark on that cemetery on Lengthy Island, which it sounds such as you may —

Many, many, a few years from now.

A few years. Oh, my god, so many.

So a few years.

What do you assume he would say? Like, he’d roll over and be like, Robin, you’re right here.

The place did you buy groceries?

How a lot did you pay for lettuce?

Take a proper flip.

How a lot did you pay for lettuce? It’s cheaper on the different place.

I used to be going to say, I’m useless, however that’s not the suitable —

That’s it.

That’s so humorous.

Yeah, we’ll simply be bickering into eternity about, I don’t like these flowers. Get a special plant. It’s simply, yeah, it —

Have you ever been out to go to Mark lately?

Sure, I used to be on the market just a few occasions. Most lately was someday final 12 months. And I went over and simply type of checked out him, and talked to him, and informed him what was up. After which I seemed on the area subsequent to him and thought, is that basically the place I’m going to finish up?

And the way did you are feeling, taking a look at that vacant area?

It felt unusual. It felt actually unusual as a result of I at all times puzzled if shopping for that plot for his girlfriend was actually only a approach of — that perhaps it was for me all alongside, getting divorced or not. We struggled so laborious to make this marriage work. After which we really did break up up. However we by no means actually break up up. It’s like we break up up, however we have been nonetheless married. After which he died. So I really feel like I’ve spent my total time with him, earlier than he died and after, making an attempt to separate up.

Splitting up is difficult. Typically it takes ceaselessly.

Robin, thanks a lot for this dialog. We talked about demise a lot, and nonetheless by some means, it was a blast.

And we’re nonetheless laughing.

We’re laughing.

Anna, it was such a pleasure talking to you about this.

Thanks a lot.

You’re very welcome. Thanks. [SOFT MUSIC]

This episode of “Fashionable Love” was produced by Amy Pearl with assist from Reva Goldberg and Davis Land. It was edited by our govt producer Jen Poyant, manufacturing administration by Kristina Djossa. The “Fashionable Love” theme music is by Dan Powell. Unique music by Rowan Niemisto. Aman Sahota, and Marion Lozano. This episode was combined by Daniel Ramirez. Studio help from Maddy Masiello and Nick Pitman. Particular because of Mahima Chablani, Nell Gallogly, Jeffrey Miranda, and Paula Szuchman.

The “Fashionable Love” column is edited by Daniel Jones. Miya Lee is the editor of “Fashionable Love” tasks. If you wish to submit an essay or a tiny love story to “The New York Occasions,” we’ve obtained the directions in our present notes. I’m Anna Martin. Thanks for listening.